Christian Scholarship Led me to Reject Christianity
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[First Published in Nov. 2006] One of the reasons I have rejected
Christianity is that I studied the Bible. That's right. I studied the
Bible. As I did s...
19 hours ago
14 comments:
Dear Emory,
I feel very sorry for you. This can only be hilarious to either ignorant people who do not know their Bible very well, or if they know it, they stumble over the simplicity of how the "seeming" discrepancy can be explained. There are far more truths to concern ourselves with in God's "precious" Word, (that are not confusing) to eat and digest, which empower us to live a productive, holy life, than to eat junk food from unbelievers, agnostics, atheists, and skeptics. God leaves room (even in His Word) for unintended human error and he will even allow it to be printed in His Word (even to test people's faith). However, willful, intentional sin, will not be overlooked if any of us are so bullheaded to fully intend to make unbelievers out of others with foolish jokes to disciple others to ungodliness, sin, and even atheism.
I would tremble in my shoes to think of asking prayer from others (and I know I faithfully prayed and I am sure others have also, and am still praying for you and your family) if I had cancer, and then turn against God after his goodness and mercy is extended. This stupid, atheistic cartoon does not daunt my faith in the "inerrant Word of God" at all. You'd better fear and tremble in passing on such blasphemous material to others. Living a righteous life is not an imaginary reward. It is a very present, peaceful, and wonderful experience, no matter how others do despite against Christians. They have to live with their guilty conscience, and when they sear it to no more guilt, they're really in bad shape then, and most generally in trouble with the law. Please repent and open up your heart to a loving and a holy God before a worse eternity occurs.
In Christian love and faithfulness,
Uncle Gordon
Uncle Gordon,
To be fair, I was a believer when I asked for prayer. Being cancer free has nothing to do with prayer. And I'm not going to a hotter part of a make-believe place for thinking the way I do. If there is a god (which I of course don't think there is) then he created me to have an inquiring, proof-not-faith, mind.
You are deluded. How much brainwashing does it take to say the bible is the "inerrant word of God"?
You say: "God leaves room (even in His Word) for unintended human error..." My goodness! Are you a hypocrite or what? Which is it? Inerrant or errant? Is it unintended that the story of creation is wrong? (Evolution proves otherwise, and the cosmological argument fails on the grounds that god is unaccounted for. So what if NO ONE knows what started it all? I sleep okay at night just knowing I'm here.) Is it unintended to suggest that animals talk? (Look around. Commonsense tells us otherwise, and one key ingredient of a fable is to have a talking animal.) Is it unintended when it states the entire earth was completely covered in water to a depth high enough to cover every mountain? (Geology proves otherwise.)
For me, if I couldn't believe everything in the bible then I saw no reason to believe anything in the bible. There are certainly some good morals in the bible, but nothing that mankind didn't think of on their own long before the circa 6000 years ago when Cain killed Abel over a dispute regarding who offered the more excellent sacrifice. (to be continued)
(continued)
The some good morals are far outweighed by the horrendous, barbaric, tribal/racist proceedings of the Israel nation "in the name of God." For God to kill all of the children, babies, and unborn babies (aka abortion) in a flood because they would have grown up to be "evil" is just too much to swallow. A god like that does not deserve to be worshiped. And I will bet eternity on it (whatever "eternity" means).
Actually, have you ever thought about what eternity means? If not, please see the video titled "Creation, take one" (or something like that) by NonStampCollector. It is the temporal things in life that give it meaning. You looked forward in July to getting your braces off in August. You are exhausted at the end of a hard day and can look forward to going to bed. You get a cold and know it won't last forever. You eat too much cake and know you will pay for it with a bigger waistline. Etc., etc., etc. What is heaven described as? For Islam, it is 72 virgins for the males if they die the right death. But on day 73 what is it? For Christians it is just a chance to chant "holy, holy, holy" for ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever (keep this going for ever, and ever, and ever...).
Heaven is just a fairy tale to appease the fear of dying. Hell is just a fear tactic to induce servitude.
If you will cling to the idea that the bible is the "inerrant word of God" then I will grant you audience one last time for a response. Then you can be free to the exercise the idiotic idea that you are "casting pearls before swine."
Peace,
Emory
Dear Emory,
Thanks for answering. I pray that you will become a believer in God again. I certainly agree with you that "being cancer free has nothing to do with prayer" because there are many who don't have physical cancer that never pray or rarely, and there are others who pray who are dying of physical cancer and may be righteous, born again Christians. In the heart of a Christian's prayer of faith is, "God, thy will be done." We will all die of something unless we are still living when Jesus comes. Then Christians will experience sudden death and sudden life in the twinkling of an eye!
No, I am not a hypocrite. I believe in the inerrant, infallible Word of God from the original Hebrew and Greek texts. What I said was that there are "seeming" discrepancies in God's Word that can be explained by the differences of how the men who were writing saw things in their human frame that didn't make a difference in a matter of serious vital discrepancies as to a person's salvation and moral doctrines. There could be a difference in a number of angels one saw when there were in reality two, or the numbers some counted vs. other numbers that were counted by others which were recorded. Rather than to be an extremist, it would be better to blame man than God, because God made man "not to fall in sin" but with choice to live or die. Thank God for second chances, and sometimes more.
I've never seen evolution prove ANYTHING but that it's a lie from the father of it! (Nor will it.) It sure hasn't proven the genealogies of all the people who have lived from the beginning of the creation to the time of Christ and beyond to the present. Kind of amazing, is it not, that after all these years humanity keeps the human tradition of reproducing "after their kind". Wow, even all creation follows the same path. (Poor evolutionists and atheists: faith in God is just to real and simple for them: not a figment of the imagination at all) Even the whole universe is timed with specific order contrary to the disorder of a disorganized happenstance of a BIG BANG. Ha! Ha!
Geology is God in your eyes then? So Geology proves God a liar to you then? Geology has been wrong before because geology is taught by unbelieving men as well as believing men. It depends on who is teaching you, a liar and an infidel as Darwin or a Man of God, who truly knows the Geology that's right and correct.
Strange how you'll believe in electronic animated infidels who are made by human beings to teach you this blasphemous garbage but you won't believe in a God that could make his creation whether a man or a woman dumb or a donkey talk, or a man live in a whale of a fish. (To be continued)
In Christian love and faithfulness,
Gordon Allen
Dear Emory,
Thanks for answering. I pray that you will become a believer in God again. I certainly agree with you that "being cancer free has nothing to do with prayer" because there are many who don't have physical cancer that never pray or rarely, and there are others who pray who are dying of physical cancer and may be righteous, born again Christians. In the heart of a Christian's prayer of faith is, "God, thy will be done." We will all die of something unless we are still living when Jesus comes. Then Christians will experience sudden death and sudden life in the twinkling of an eye!
No, I am not a hypocrite. I believe in the inerrant, infallible Word of God from the original Hebrew and Greek texts. What I said was that there are "seeming" discrepancies in God's Word that can be explained by the differences of how the men who were writing saw things in their human frame that didn't make a difference in a matter of serious vital discrepancies as to a person's salvation and moral doctrines. There could be a difference in a number of angels one saw when there were in reality two, or the numbers some counted vs. other numbers that were counted by others which were recorded. Rather than to be an extremist, it would be better to blame man than God, because God made man "not to fall in sin" but with choice to live or die. Thank God for second chances, and sometimes more.
I've never seen evolution prove ANYTHING but that it's a lie from the father of it! (Nor will it.) It sure hasn't proven the genealogies of all the people who have lived from the beginning of the creation to the time of Christ and beyond to the present. Kind of amazing, is it not, that after all these years humanity keeps the human tradition of reproducing "after their kind". Wow, even all creation follows the same path. (Poor evolutionists and atheists: faith in God is just to real and simple for them: not a figment of the imagination at all) Even the whole universe is timed with specific order contrary to the disorder of a disorganized happenstance of a BIG BANG. Ha! Ha!
Geology is God in your eyes then? So Geology proves God a liar to you then? Geology has been wrong before because geology is taught by unbelieving men as well as believing men. It depends on who is teaching you, a liar and an infidel as Darwin or a Man of God, who truly knows the Geology that's right and correct.
Strange how you'll believe in electronic animated infidels who are made by human beings to teach you this blasphemous garbage but you won't believe in a God that could make his creation whether a man or a woman dumb or a donkey talk, or a man live in a whale of a fish. (to be continued)
In Christian love and faithfulness,
Uncle Gordon
(Continued)
Uncle Gordon said,
Dear Emory,
Speaking of all the babies that died in the flood--you're blaming the wrong one. Blame the unrepentant parents like yourself who wouldn't take the babies into the Ark to be saved. Repentance has always turned the wrath of God away. Death in water, death in disease, death in taking the breath away, bleeding to death in war, whatever---we will die--then be judged. Everyone of those babies and children who really did not have the accountability are in paradise in my holy faith of the Bible, not in hell or annihilation.
All the people that I've ever known that "bet" had very little to bet with--that's why they were betting, hoping to get an advantage of others without working for it. Usually those who have a lot to bet with, have robbed the others through knowing the tricks or skills of betting.
I've never wanted to bet nor had to. God has supplied my needs and many times beyond them through health and hard work. It's better to have faith in God, which is a walk in the light not a shot in the dark. Your statement of betting eternity, shows the foolishness of it. It is not in your power nor mine if I wanted to. Forever in the good life is what YOU (and I) want it to be. Not a forever in the lake of fire for those who choose it rather than repentance and righteous living before God.
How can you say anything we do--we do on our own?--nothing to do with a God? None of us could have any existence without the many things that constitute life given by God who is everything pertaining to life. Why even our very existence teaches us our interdependency on each other and a higher power. Why go get help from someone else for anything if we don't need help from God? (Only a fool wouldn't) Nature teaches us the wisdom of social existence. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.
I'm glad there's a lot more to Heaven than what you (and I )seem to think. I don't even think the Bible mentions chanting anywhere. They were saying through singing probably because singing is a beautiful medium of worship. The disciples sung hymns with Jesus before going to the cross. The choirs of saints will be fabulous because of the throngs who will be overjoyed of Heaven's rewards and harps of beauty will be played. Mansions will be there for all the redeemed to enjoy for having fellowhip with the ages of Christians. You and I have nothing to look forward to if we are not fully repentant, blood washed from ALL sin, and living blameless before the Lord when Jesus comes or death before His coming.
I'd rather be casting pearls before swine (as Jesus did on occasion, not habitually, for those who rejected him) in behalf of those who might turn in repentance. You make the choice--no one else. Only others can witness to your lost soul. You choose to become a swine without God or a redeemed saint coupled with the blood of Christ with faith and works. Remember, others read this besides yourself. If they listen to God and His sons they are saved. If they listen to you and Satan's slaves, they are lost in Eternal Flames where the worm doesn't even die. May your last response be repentance and turning from your blasphemous advertising or I will fight it till the day I die.
In Christian love and faithfulness,
Uncle Gordon
[Part 1 of 3]
Please read this:
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2010/08/psychological-pull-of-christian-story.html
I said nothing about the big bang. But, is it one big conspiracy that the earth is proven to be older than 6000 years? The billions of galaxies that are billions of light-years away just miraculously shed their light immediately on earth when God "spoke" it? Never mind the galaxies provide no substantial light for our nighttime strolls; God created them for our viewing pleasure within the last few hundred years when MAN created the telescope. Wow! Thank you, God! And thank you, Allah (just in case the bible isn't really the words of a god but the works of a mythological people.) Oh, but that's what all gods are: a myth.
You say you have never seen evolution do anything. I'm sorry, have you never seen darker skinned people? Do you know that eskimos are relatively shorter and stockier to reduce the surface area of their body to reduce heat loss? Genes that cause this survive to give offspring the best chance for survival. It is not a lie from the father of lies. That is a fictional character.
[part 2 of 3]
One thing that upsets me is that I asked "Where did God come from?" when I was 7 or 8 years old. I was told that I just had to believe it and that was good enough. Why or why was I cursed with a rational brain? Although I still cannot answer where the whole of the cosmos came from, I am not so stupid as to blindly plug the gap with "God did it." (and then which god?). That only answers a complex question with another complex problem. How many turtles hold the earth up?
My "growing up" has ostracized me from my family and friends that still believe the fairy tale. It's not everyone and it's not extreme; but, it is awkward at times. The girls have bragged that they are smarter than me because "Only a fool has said there is no god." And it's all in the name of faith. A faith that surpasses all understanding.
It's not that I want to squash the Chritianities for personal glory or satisfaction, but I'll be damned if my girls are going to continue to go through the psychological torture of thinking that their daddy is going to hell. I have to put a stop to that!
[part 3 of 3]
I have come to my position by reason, you have come to your position (I think) by being born in a house that believed the fantasy. You have never known anything BUT faith. The fantasy of living forever is a strong one. It is one that I wish was true. But I've grown up.
You know that you praised God for answered prayer when my cancer treatment went successfully. But now you changed your tune: "I certainly agree with you that "being cancer free has nothing to do with prayer" because there are many who don't have physical cancer that never pray or rarely, and there are others who pray who are dying of physical cancer and may be righteous, born again Christians." What is the point again. Ohhhh...so that "God, thy will be done." What utter bull. That's just a cop out for an answer to why bad things happen to good people. It is a necessary ingredient to keep believing. Did you notice that I walked away from the faith not after my cancer treatments failed but after they worked? I thank the doctors. I decided that it makes no sense to me why God gets the credit for everything good and the Devil gets the credit for everything bad.
Your solution to the babies in the flood is laughable. Yep, they're in heaven because they were sinless. But instead of a humane death, God chose to drown them. Your all loving all merciful all powerful God chose to drown these innocent children. Huh?
Peace,
Emory
Hi Emory,
I am sorry for how I related what you said about “being cancer free has nothing to do with prayer” with a general statement of anyone than specifically to you. With you, I do not agree because at that time you were a believer, you had asked for prayer, and I prayed as well as others prayed for your several requests for not only yourself, but for Shelley and the girls. Therefore if you will accept my apologies, I did not mean it for you at all, because I truly believe our prayers, God, and the doctors did have something to do with how things turned out. What I was saying is, that for those who do not express any faith in God or a desire for prayer, just because someone is cancer free doesn’t mean prayer has anything to do with their being cancer free. It “could” have but not necessarily. I would never in any situation ascribe praise to only doctors for any situation totally because of how intricate in healing the body, soul, and spirit is. It all has a part in the healing process coupled with our Creator’s mercy. The biggest percent of the doctors do not want all the honor bestowed to them because they are losing patients daily of which they have no control (sometimes). I have not changed my tune for your specific situation, so I am sorry.
In relationship with the age of the earth, what I understand being said in Genesis is that the earth could be much older than 6,000 years as you implied. It says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form and void.” (a very startling statement) We have no recorded knowledge when that beginning was. Then he started the completion of that process in a 6 day period as we know it. That word “was” without form and void in the original Hebrew has the meaning, “became”. It “became without form and void”. It has been speculated that this earth previously was the “angels’ first estate” spoken of in Jude 6. The Bible says, “Heaven is God’s throne and the earth is his footstool.” Therefore, this could explain the judgment of God on the angels that sinned and their first habitation, inclusive of heaven with God. We are told in II Pet. 2: 4, that the angels that sinned were cast down to hell. We are told in Rev. 12:9, that Satan and his angels was cast out of heaven into the earth. Another place says, heaven is above, hell in beneath. Hell is speculated from this to be within the core of this earth and Satan is bound and his angels in a physical sense till the time of the end when he is physically loosed spoken Rev. 20.
Evolution did not change the color of the races. These same races which are still reproducing from the beginning (after their kind) of the time spoken of in Genesis 10 and 11, the time of Babel after the flood have never changed from their particular race if they did not intermarry between the races. We still have the descendents of Abraham (Israelites) and the descendents of Ishmael (Arabs), Cushites, Ethiopians, etc. The same God that caused the many languages to begin is the same God that changed the colors of the skin, not an evolution process at all, because this is still present in our day and continuing not to change unless intermarrying occurs to change the genetic structure God originally set for reproduction. (To be Continued)
Hi Emory,
I commend you for wanting to use the reasoning process God gave in our minds and hearts. Adam and Eve used it rightly and they used it wrongly. Following Cain, etc. We have to admit when we are right and when we are wrong in humility or we will evolve into arrogant devils. Since you and I don’t know where God came from, except from what has been told us in the most ancient of all history books the Bible, which takes faith in believing as I do, let’s then start with you. How do you know you are Gordon Brown and Marcia Brown’s son??? Did you remember when you came out of Marcia’s womb?? When the Doc, or midwife cleaned you up? Etc. No. So you don’t really, really know, except the evidence of being associated with those who have told you the truth about your first birthday. Sorry for the “F” word again but even with your reason you have to acknowledge even in this you have to have FAITH and believe your interdependent ancestry. Same with God, George Washington, or Darwin—whether he even existed. You will never run from right reason, wrong reason, true faith, or false faith. It’s your choice to find it with faith in the AUTHOR of the GOOD BOOK. Unless you accept the author in your heart with faith because he died for your sins, and want to allow him to give you faith for only asking him, no one else but you and your dependence on God can transform you into knowing the truth that will set you free of all sin and infidelity or falseness not based on TRUE REASON.
As I said before about the various ways God allows any of us to die is never a grandiose thing God ever wanted for you and I. We have brought a lot on ourselves too many times. We must humble our hearts and take a real good inventory of our reason, whether it’s really right or wrong. My Mother died in a gruesome auto accident. I’ve had to live with the memory of that for years. When my Father died, my step-mother said when he started to die after eating breakfast one morning that his eyes flashed and darted back and forth as though he was seeing something horrible in fear. Now I have to live with that memory. Was he lost? What about how Orzo died? Bea? Sammy? Vonda? Who’s next? No time to fool around. Might be me next. The consequences of our sin put God’s Son on the Cross so you, Shelley, Riley, and Sidney could go to Heaven together.
I was born in a cigarette sucker’s home and a cusser’s home and a mom that was unstable in what God really wanted of her in genuine Christian maturity, but she remained faithful till Dad repented. I’m not the judge of how they ended, but it’s more questionable for Dad than Mom. But I have me to answer for. No, I came to the place I had to make decisions as to what was right or wrong in the way I was living and what God says to live in His Word. I don’t know of any book that I’ve ever read that makes more sense about genuine faith and the real truth of everything than the Bible. Prayer is vital to me. Grace is vital for forgiving and loving others no matter how I’m treated. I am still in the process of maturing in Christ. Humility is a precious fruit of righteousness to possess. I would not be grown up for sure if I did not believe in this Holy and Righteous Savior, Judge, and King who you call fantasy. Emory, only you can change you and you’d better be reasonable enough to allow God to take up residence within you heart. I encourage you to ask Christ into your heart to live a reasonable life.
In Genuine Love and Concern,
Uncle Gordon
Hi Emory,
I am assuming that you think I am sick mentally or spiritually, since I am now 61 and have never been in a hospital overnight yet, and again I give praise to God for the fact that at eighteen years of age he had mercy on me as a sinner, and forgave me of all my sins and following gave me his Spirit in sanctifying power, and has continued to forgive me and renew me with His Holy Spirit as I have been convicted of newer light as I walked with Him. I have been faithful since that time to keep the Sabbath of the Lord (never worked, bought merchandise, nor sold any merchandise on Sunday, the Lord’s Day) and to treat my body as a temple of the Holy Spirit while also eating as healthfully (spiritually, mentally, and physically) as I know how. Without His grace and health, I cannot do anything.
The last time I checked in with Jesus, which was this morning during which time I also prayed for you, my family, and several others, I found assurance and confidence that all is well with my soul toward God and my fellowmen. Mentally, I just finished balancing my bank business statements which come out exact and I am still competent enough to still be in my piano business after 12 years and my best year was in the time of this past recession, this last year. So be it.
As for Church fellowship, I am ministering in two assisted living homes every Sunday and visiting any neighbors and people I have ministered to in rehabilitation. (where two or three are gathered together in my name, meaning nature and way, there am I in the midst of them) I would like to be in a godly, spiritual church (as far as the leadership is concerned; not referring in being judgmental of those who are seeking to find a relationship with God and are newcomers to the faith). After 43 years of knowing the Lord, I am as particular as God’s spotless church is about worshipping the holy God and not having fellowship with the evil works of darkness. (continued)
With Christian love,
Uncle Gordon
Hi Emory,
If those who are non-biblical don’t want me to come to their church because I am biblical, then I can’t do anything about that. As you say, if one can’t believe in all God says, there is no sense in believing part of it (other than at least being that much right in belief; God still requires a whole heart commitment). I have found that churches are operating like a business, or a club, than a holy, pure, loving, fellowship who are committed to the whole truth. God says if we allow just a little bit of sin in our hearts, then the whole body becomes defiled as leaven affects bread. If you think I am too desirous of Christian perfection, take a look at the Seven Churches in the Book of Revelation. Two of those churches were perfect or blameless. The others were chastened by God to get sin out of their churches. If people don’t want to get cleansed and delivered from all sin for the main purpose of coming to church in Christian fellowship, then otherwise, it becomes a “defiled club”.
In closing, I have noticed that anything we have discussed and I explained you went on to something else rather than reasoning rightly to a concrete solution or fact. You are doing nothing but spinning on a “crazy cycle”. I never did like “atheist-go-a-rounds”. So, I wish to approach this at what we do agree on. We both agree that we should reason to what is genuine truth. Let us settle one issue at a time before we go to the next topic, as I am a Christian apologetic. It can be settled with solely truthful reason. Note the following:
Reason is the thing that makes some fact or truth understood.
Faith is the evidences and substance which we can see, ABOUT things which we
cannot see with our physical eyes, which cause us TO BELIEVE; this is called
a revealing or revelation.
Reason is relative to truth; It is a way of knowing truth; understanding it,
discovering it, or proving it. Faith is also relative to truth. It is a way of
discovering truth. No human being ever existed without some faith. We ALL
know most of what we know by faith: that is, be belief in what others—parents,
teachers, friends, writers, society—tell us. Faith and reason are roads to truth.
Truth is fact; a fundamental reality; a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true.
Now, based on the above, let us tackle one issue at a time by answering: Y for YES (if most of our reason is in agreement with the issue at hand), N for NO (if most of our reason is not in agreement) and DK for I DON’T KNOW (if we are equally in doubt for and against) I will make a table that you will need to copy to clipboard, fill in, then paste back on our comment entrance.
(continued)
With Christian love,
Uncle Gordon
QUESTION
Is Gordon still sick in your truthful reason?
GORDON EMORY OTHERS
N Is it as reasonable to believe that Adam & Eve were the first parents of all humanity as to
believe your parents are really your parents or that George Washington was really the
first U.S. President?
Y
Is it reasonable to believe that all the genealogies of the most ancient of all history books, the Holy Bible are more accurate than any other known document?
Y
Is it reasonable to believe that Jews are really descendents of a man named Abraham as well
as Arabs the descendents of Abraham, as well as many other nationalities, seeing that
the strife among these descendents still exist until they accept Jesus as their Savior and become one brotherhood?
Y
Is it reasonable to you that the most real part of you, which makes your body move is invisible and
when you die the most unreal part of you can still be seen until it decays and returns to dust just
like God’s Word says?
Y
Is it reasonable to you that if the most ancient of all cities as
Jerusalem, Athens, Corinth, and Rome still exist, that assuredly
Jesus did in fact live, was
crucified for envy and for a sacrifice for our sins,
yet raised again from the dead and that Paul and other apostles and disciples did in fact live?
Y
Is it reasonable to you that there is a perfect peach, a perfect apple, a perfect baby, as well as a spotted peach, a wormy, apple, a deformed baby, as well as briars and thorns?
Y
Is it reasonable to you that you want your girls to know the truth and right reason than a lie and lying reason that is not true?
Y
Is it reasonable to you that a lie should be punished and truth should be rewarded?
Y
Is it reasonable to you that God should force you like a robot or
control you as such rather than to give you your own choice to love him or hate him, thus choosing your own destination of good or bad, life or death, heaven or hell?
N
Is it reasonable to think that God is being long suffering to humanity rather than to cut them
off for their wickedness, before their repentance?
Y
With Christian love,
Uncle Gordon
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